Do they see you as a huckster? aka: Be careful what you glorify...

My point was not about altruism.

Altruism is akin to charity.

There's a whole world BETWEEN charity + hucksterism!

Hey, I'm a big believer in the profit motive. Hell, I'm even a big believer in generating OBSCENE profits.

Ain't nothing wrong with turning a profit!

What my OP was driving at was crossing the line between being an entrepreneur WITH scruples to one without scruples -- as well as being able to SEE hucksters for what they are, instead of glorifying them, because you are too deluded to recognize their hucksterism.

What's the difference between a legitimate entrepreneur and a huckster?

That's hard to define. It's like art -- you know it when you see it (hopefully).

There's nothing wrong with offering something of value and getting (well) paid for it.

It's when that system starts to include ripping people off -- scamming them -- that the tide turns.

I'm suddenly becoming AWARE that there are waaaay too many THINLY VEILED charlatans out there.

Maybe they were once really trying to operate on the 'good side' (and I DO NOT mean goodie-two shoes, altruistic, warm+fuzzy helpfulness) -- but then they turned to a life of SLEAZY 'crime' by 'robbing the bank' instead of playing by the rules.

The gurus who are actually playing their audience FOR FOOLS!

THAT'S what I am suddenly becoming aware of.

I see them cloaked in all kinds of ways -- but like the final scene in The Matrix, I can now see them clearly.

Some are cloaked as well-meaning, almost-jolly, overweight, aging guru types -- some cloak themselves as middle-age, new-age surfer dudes -- and those are the creative types.

Some are so LAZY, they cloak themselves in a 'gig' that's 20+ years old + VERY TIRESOME! -- That of a wise-cracking, wise-ass, (supposedly) hip, 'edgy' take no prisoners, lone wolf, gruff, brusk, (supposedly) clever, cool marketing whiz.

How very staggeringly, colossally BORING + PREDICTABLE + TIRESOME (and UNinspired)!

Again, my point here is, there's PLENTY of space between warm+fuzzy altruism, and hucksterism.

No need to drift to either extreme.

-- TW

Michael,

Our visit with our son, a ONCE A YEAR EVENT (usually) due to school, work, and distance IS IMPORTANT. YOU, on the other hand, have ZERO IMPORTANCE in my life.

I find you to be extremely manipulative, egotistical, and with a mean streak that distorts intelligence and threads to your choosing instead of allowing the free flow of constructive comment.

I choose not to respond to you except for this statement of my position.

Sandi Bowman

Sandi,

Thanks for your Statement of Position.

Again he asks... what have you by way of Backup to your additional accusations of me?

Got any examples of this Mean Streak you reckon I have? Got any examples of how I supposedly Distort Intelligence. How about being Manipulative or Egotistical? Or is it, as I mentioned previously, you're just throwing the terms out there as if they were fact and then leave it at that.

Here's the thing, Sandi.

If you make a Statement at least have some way to back it up when asked. Otherwise, don't make the statement.

Running away when asked about your "statements said as fact", and then posturing any excuse as to why you cannot backup what you said, garners you nothing. Better to not even make the excuse.

Specially, when you have time to say you have no time, or won't respond. Why bother taking the time to respond to tell me you aren't going to respond?

Fine. You choose not to Respond to me. So be it. However, it won't stop me Questioning things that don't gel with me. Such as if someone, during this free flow of comment, says something I find Not Right.

Have the strength of your convictions - to stand by them and back them up - is my take.

Anyway. I think it pretty obvious to those who know what Galt's Gulch is, what my position is on a great many things - going by my designated Location.

Michael Ross

[Dien Rice]

Originally Posted by Sandi Bowman

There ARE good people out there with some altruistic motives but they're fewer in number than they used to be, I believe. Maybe it's just my perception but I think this 'shrinking of caring' attitude is partly why folks like me become jaded and fed up with the internet a lot of times. You can only be pushed so far, disappointed so many times, before one looks elsewhere for the good life. Been there, done that.

I think what it often boils down to is whether businesspeople take a "long term" or a "short term" approach...

When businesspeople take a "long term" approach, it "naturally" leads to a situation that is both good for them and for the customer. A long term approach usually means trying to make repeat sales to their customers. A customer won't buy repeatedly unless they are happy. So a businessperson with a long-term view will naturally want happy customers, so they'll become repeat customers.

With a long term approach, the pressure is on the businessperson to make sure their customers are happy. It's win/win!

However, when businesspeople take a "short term" approach, then there is more tendency to exaggerate, lie, etc. They're not thinking about repeat sales - just making the sale (usually a high priced one), taking the money, and disappearing. There is much less incentive to please the customer - since they're not aiming for repeat sales anyway. There's a bigger chance it will be win/lose.

I think, as long as you take a long term approach, you'll "naturally" head in the direction of trying to please your customers. I think your chances of success are also higher, if you aim for repeat sales, rather than once-off sales. I believe it is a more "solid" approach to building a business...

- Dien

TW,

Thanks for warning.

Correct me if I am wrong...

When you say Huckster you don't mean just a Seller who does so in a showy manner, you mean someone who, for want of better word, is lying. For example...

Young fellow comes to a discussion forum to Learn how to market things. After a month or two of the most inane questions, sets himself up as a Marketing Guru who can help you make a million dollars, while he still works a job in a photo lab - a part time job cause that's all he can get, not cause he's making all this money.

THAT, is the sort of thing you mean when you use the word Huckster, right?

Well. It ain't just in the Marketing Arena. It's in just about any arena you can think of... weight loss; muscle gain; blemish removal; math learning; language learning; music learning; physical fitness; and so on.

Which reminds me... years ago there used to be a fellow who was a semi regular at Bill Myers' old forum. He was a Fitness guy who used to write a newsletter. In one issue of his newsletter he wrote about... CowBioMetahydrate - a made up name.

He said how... the product was just some deHYDRATEd backyard grass clippings that had been Powdered. The claim was... take this stuff could make you as strong as a bull - after all, bulls eat grass and are pretty strong, right.

It was an Interesting issue. As it basically gave a run down of the Muscle Building Additive industry. A bunch of hucksters. Selling cheap powders at high prices. And selling Gimmicky Machines for home use.

Like the infomercial I just saw. Selling a machine called Malibu Pilates www.malibupilates.com - a gimmick if ever there was one. A $300+ gimmick. Because dang... I can't just sit in a chair and lift my legs, or do pushups on the floor and so on. I Need that machine. Bullsh*t.

But TW. It ain't even in just these Markets. It's all around. Whenever you see/hear a news item; whenever a politician opens their mouth. It's all bullsh*t. And if you turn off the tube; listen only to your own CDs and downloaded MP3s, and don't lay eyes on a newspaper; your world will not end. People might be surprised when they mention something They think is Big but you haven't heard of it. But you'll be better for it.

It's good you have awoken. Most people never will. Most people do not want to. They are so enured in their mental slumber they will fight to stay asleep.

Usually, the only way to wake someone fully is... to remove them from the environment - from the group mind think - and let them awake on their own.

That you are awaking suggests to me, some isolation from the herd has taken place within your life. (I'd be interested to know how close this is - have you noticed an Isolation, for whatever reason, which preceded your gradual awakening?)

Oh. The joy of waking is... you can never go back to sleep and succumb to the spell. It's a one way street. You can live among the comatosed but you can never become one again.

If you are interested. I suggest you do some research into brain Washing techniques - they aren't what you imagine them to be. Might surprise you to know people like Tony Robbins use them. A guy I think of as a Master Huckster.

Michael Ross
III

I started training my mind to see things through other people's eyes.

I (mentally) 'borrowed' the eyes of people who are NOT in the niche.

I think a niche is like a circle or ring. Stand inside the ring, and you hear lot's of loud noise that is the chatter (+ dreams) of all those in the niche. It's deafening.

Place your feet just outside the circle -- and you hear SILENCE.

Feet inside -- deafening DIN.

Feet outside -- silence.

Inside, outside, inside, outside -- etc.

THAT'S what I trained my mind to do.

Call it 'remote viewing,' if you will.

What I saw when I was on the outside looking in (read: minus the delusions), was not pretty -- and still isn't.

The worse news is, this is how much of the real world (outside the circle) sees US! Whether we like it or not.

Are we hucksters?

Well ---- perception is reality -- and if the shoe fits, etc.

It's something that must be dealt with -- if we are to progress, imo.

And to deal with it, we must first admit to the problem/hurdle (again, imo).

Cheers.

-- TW

the potential (and TEMPTATION) for playing one's audience FOR FOOLS!

Scamming them -- saying to one's self, "Hell I'll get the same amount of profit if I give them real value, OR NOT. Maybe it'll be an even bigger payday for me if I DON'T give them any real value!"

There's an old joke, billed as the ultimate "New Yorker's" joke, supposedly reflective of their famous who-gives-a-crap, tough-love attitude (I grew up in NYC, so I can say this) -- the joke goes like this...

Joe: I've got this great LIVE BEE collection -- with bees from all over the world, with dozens of different species and types. It is a truly wonderful collection.

Henry: Really! Where do you keep all those bees?

Joe: In this cigar box right here.

Henry: WOW! -- But don't they sting each other in there? Don't they kill each other?

Joe: F**k 'em.

______________________________________

THAT'S hucksterism.

Playing your audience FOR FOOLS.

Using sleazy USED CAR SALESMEN techniques -- thereby DISRESPECTING your potential customers, and then not giving a crap about it -- because the payday will be the same (or better) anyhow.

And -- unfortunately -- that maybe EXACTLY how the (real) world is viewing YOU, whether you like it or not! -- Whether you're actually doing that, or not!

The real world may very well think you're wearing a plaid jacket -- even if you're not!

-- TW

TW. This is a very interesting thread you started. I've enjoyed both your posts' and the responses of other members. Thought provoking stuff here.

I've had such a hard time learning copywriting for just those reasons. I couldn't get past the part of trickery; of preying on the emotional weakness of those in the niche.

I got to the point where it became obvious that long copy is necessary for those products that hucksters push on the gullible. They have to wear you down.

I just recently purchased piece of software (QuickBooks). Their copy simply tells you what the software does...made it easy to make a decision Unlike software being sold by the hucksters.

Originally Posted by -TW

the potential (and TEMPTATION) for playing one's audience FOR FOOLS!

Scamming them -- saying to one's self, "Hell I'll get the same amount of profit if I give them real value, OR NOT. Maybe it'll be an even bigger payday for me if I DON'T give them any real value!"

There's an old joke, billed as the ultimate "New Yorker's" joke, supposedly reflective of their famous who-gives-a-crap, tough-love attitude (I grew up in NYC, so I can say this) -- the joke goes like this...

Joe: I've got this great LIVE BEE collection -- with bees from all over the world, with dozens of different species and types. It is a truly wonderful collection.

Henry: Really! Where do you keep all those bees?

Joe: In this cigar box right here.

Henry: WOW! -- But don't they sting each other in there? Don't they kill each other?

Joe: F**k 'em.

______________________________________

THAT'S hucksterism.

Playing your audience FOR FOOLS.

Using sleazy USED CAR SALESMEN techniques -- thereby DISRESPECTING your potential customers, and then not giving a crap about it -- because the payday will be the same (or better) anyhow.

And -- unfortunately -- that maybe EXACTLY how the (real) world is viewing YOU, whether you like it or not! -- Whether you're actually doing that, or not!

The real world may very well think you're wearing a plaid jacket -- even if you're not!

-- TW

There's nothing wrong with long copy + other persuasive techniques (imo any way) -- the danger comes when those techniques are used to peddle SNAKE OIL.

The danger (+ temptation) comes when the marketer gets the 'brilliant' idea (?) that persuasive techniques WORK, whether the product/service being pushed is valuable, OR NOT!

Also, some of the more 'clever' (read: manipulative) persuasive techniques are GLORIFIED by the marketers -- with the sense that they allow the marketer to 'get one over on' the audience. With a 'hehe' gloating attitude about the 'unfair' sneakiness of it all.

The mindset being, if it doesn't work sufficiently using the legitimate route, then just switch over to the sneaky route -- and join the huckster crowd... morals b'damned.

My 2nd point being, th world may be thinking that about you (already), even if you're still on the legitimate side.

-- TW